Dr. St. Peter and the distinguished faculty will provide insights and clinical pearls to help achieve the goals of improving
the clinical and economic consequences of diabetic kidney disease.
Wendy L. St. Peter, PharmD, FCCP, FASN, FNKF : Now, I would like to bring my 2 esteemed colleagues together to join me to talk a little bit more about some of the topics
we touched on during our presentations. And I wanted to focus my first question on Dr. Agarwal. As you pointed out, we now
have 3 approved therapies for reducing progression of kidney disease. The majority of patients in the SGLT-2 inhibitor trials,
the finerenone DKD trials were on ACE inhibitors and ARBs at baseline. Considering efficacy of both of those classes of drugs,
which class, SGLT-2s or finerenone, should be considered first in patients with DKD. And then secondarily, what are the key
monitoring parameters that you want to think about when adding either one of those to an ACE and ARB?
Rajiv Agarwal, MBBS, MD, MS, FASN, BRCU: Great question, Dr. St. Peter. I think that we are now in the same place that perhaps we were with heart failure therapies
or with antihypertensive therapies, when there were more and more classes that came out. We initially, for example, with the
blood pressure guidelines, we had a sequencing approach. You had a step care approach. And then we went to a combination therapy
approach. While I don't know how the guidelines will define this, I think we have a great opportunity here to fine tune our
therapy to the needs of our patients. As you pointed out, everybody needs to be on an ACE or ARB as a background therapy.
But once we have satisfied that requirement, because all the trials did that, we have to ask, which of the 2 therapies, nonsteroidal
MRA, or a SGLT-2 inhibitor, given what I know about the patient's physiology and pathology, would fit best?
For example, a patient who has, say, hypokalemia, potassium might be 3.4, 3.5. I would probably use a nonsteroidal MRA because
it's going to raise potassium. Whereas if the potassium was 5.2, I'd say, "Well, nonsteroidals are contraindicated. We'd probably
use an SGLT-2 inhibitor." If the eGFR was less than 25, neither one of these 2 drugs would work. But important to note that,
if the eGFR has gone down from, say, 45 and it's declining, and the patient has an eGFR of 15 or 20, it's not an indication
for stopping either drug. We continue to give the drug. We don't stop it just because the eGFR has declined.
Wendy L. St. Peter, PharmD, FCCP, FASN, FNKF : I want to make sure that pharmacists understand this point, that if you have somebody that has an eGFR less than 25, neither
of these sets of drug classes do you initiate the drug. But if they're on it and reach below that, you can continue all the
way to dialysis.
Rajiv Agarwal, MBBS, MD, MS, FASN, BRCU : Absolutely. Very good point. I get call all the time, "Hey, we stopped the drug because the eGFR fell to less than 25." Well,
if you read either one of the package inserts, they don't say that. They say, we don't start if the eGFR is less than 25.
In a patient who has recurrent UTI or fungal infections that they might have experienced with SGLT-2, it's very hard for the
patients to go back on those drugs. In fact, the patients say, "Doc, I know what you're talking about. I don't want to go
back taking this drug which caused it." So if the patient is not going to take the drug that you're prescribing, you probably
have to choose an alternative. So I think we will have to make a choice. But ultimately, both drugs would work better together.
So you'll have triple drug therapy for most patients.
In particular, what we have seen in trials is that when you use the 2 drugs together, the propensity to get hyperkalemia is
less. So people who are getting the combination of SGLT-2 inhibitor and finerenone, they're probably less likely to get hyperkalemia.
I presented an abstract at the World Congress of Nephrology meeting a few months ago, and these were data from FIDELIO trial.
And what we showed is that people who are on baseline SGLT-2 inhibitor, they had less likelihood to get hyperkalemic. Another
group that can benefit is people who are on diuretics. If they're on diuretics, they're less likely to get hyperkalemic at
baseline. So I think we will have to use our clinical judgment, which goes first. But ultimately, I hope that most patients
will get all 3 drugs.
Wendy L. St. Peter, PharmD, FCCP, FASN, FNKF : And I think now that finerenone is on the market and clinicians will get them into their hands and start experiencing, we'll
start seeing information coming out on the literature about practical ways of how these drugs can be monitored and dosed when
they're used together. So hopefully though, that kind of information will start appearing shortly.
Rajiv Agarwal, MBBS, MD, MS, FASN, BRCU : Just to make a point, the package insert has very clear guidelines on how to monitor potassium. They have to come back in
4 weeks and then periodically thereafter. Only if the potassium is more than 5.5 that you hold the drug. And when you hold
the drug, you recheck it and you can start it at a lower dose. So I think it's really important to see the potassium in these
patients. The guidelines on how you start and stop, they are a little complicated, but you have to know those numbers when
you start using the drug.
Wendy L. St. Peter, PharmD, FCCP, FASN, FNKF : I think it will help too when guidelines, like KDIGO, will also incorporate those into guidelines too and put some of that
information out there. It is hard to keep track of all that. And so certainly alerts, I think Dr. Richardson, you really pointed
that out. Those helpful alerts in EHRs are really important. Can you speak, Dr. Richardson, to how community pharmacists,
particularly those pharmacists that offer enhanced services, are ideally positioned to identify patients with CKD, using some
of the tests we talked about and doing things like med rec and review?
Michelle M. Richardson, PharmD, BCPS : I think there's a lot of opportunity in those situations where they're more likely to see the patients more frequently than,
as you said, primary care or even nephrologists. So that one, the frequency of contact, certainly makes teaching about the
disease and its silent nature easier, because it's small bits over time. Also, having those tests right there so that a patient
isn't leaving a primary care physician's office and having to go to a laboratory or having additional steps. So it becomes
a 1-stop for what they need. I think also, the pharmacists have ready accessibility to information, whether it be the guidelines,
the package inserts. They can appreciate these complex differences between initiating and continuing therapy. They're also
going to be aware when maybe it's not a PCP who's discontinuing something, or maybe a nephrologist is adding a medication
that the PCP doesn't know about. So the pharmacist has information upon which they can make at least initial judgments about
what's going on.
As far as identifying patients at risk, certainly someone who comes in with any treatment for diabetes is automatically an
at-risk person for CKD. So right there could be a trigger to either refer the patient to various sources of information, depending
on who they are, their health literacy, what they know about their other diseases. And then I think, as you both have mentioned,
as we think about the treatments to inhibit the progression of CKD, things are getting more complicated. There's more and
more medications. There's more and more monitoring. And there has to be the central person who's readily available to patients
to be able to address those things. And I think pharmacists are well positioned to be able to do that.
Wendy L. St. Peter, PharmD, FCCP, FASN, FNKF : I just wanted to discuss how pharmacists can help close that gap in the shortage of both primary care physicians, as well
as nephrology, not only physicians, but nephrology nurse practitioners, and how that could help practices incorporate better
comprehensive medication guidelines.
Rajiv Agarwal, MBBS, MD, MS, FASN, BRCU : I think that it's really important to screen these patients. I think, as it was pointed out, we have point-of-care devices
now. One of the things that really needs to get on board with these patients is screening for kidney disease in presence of
diabetes. The national statistics show that only 1 in 5 patients has been screened for albuminuria when they have diabetes.
The guidelines tell us they have to have annual screens. It's not happening. And now, we have these amazing trials that show
that you can screen, but now you can do something about it. It's not just an academic exercise. A lot of primary care physicians
used to ask, "Okay, what would I do with that information if I find albuminuria?" Well, you can prescribe these medicines.
They are indicated based on that result itself. Don't wait until the eGFR starts declining, because albuminuria is one of
the earliest markers.
And it's the lucky people who get dialysis. Most people die of cardiovascular disease. So if you really want to impact cardiovascular
health in these people, it's to screen for albuminuria, which is really, really simple. It can be done by any point-of-care
device. It doesn't even need a blood draw. And I think that's where pharmacists can really have a great role. The other place
I see is that oftentimes, these therapies are stopped. Just the other day, one of my patients said, "Well, they stopped my
SGLT-2 inhibitor because my glucose dropped." I say, "If your glucose dropped, they need to reduce your insulin, not stop
your SGLT-2." Here, really, the pharmacist can help and say, "Hey, if you are on a GLP-1 RA or SGLT-2, they're not just glucose
lowering drugs, they are protecting your heart and your kidneys. And you need to address the insulin and lighten up on that
instead of messing around with these 2 therapies.
And as you pointed out, I think these are very important tools that the pharmacist can provide to the primary care physician.
If we have to make a dent in cardiovascular disease and kidney disease health in people who are living with diabetes, we have
to move upstream. We have to involve everyone. We can't just be dependent on endocrinologists, cardiologists, and nephrologists.
We will need pharmacists, we will need primary care physicians, and we will need to educate the patient and say, "What is
my number, doc?" Just like they said, "What is my number for cholesterol? And what is my number for blood pressure?" They
are to be asking the doctors, "Doc, can you check if I have kidney injury?" I think that's off the radar screen. If we don't
educate the people, we're going to not make a dent in this massive epidemic.
Michelle M. Richardson, PharmD, BCPS : To add to that, and I completely agree with all of Dr. Agarwal's points, more people have access to a pharmacist and closer
proximity than they do a physician, particularly in less populated areas of the country. And so by recruiting everyone and
making this just be something that all adults who are at risk do on a regular basis to meet the... The guidelines are based
mostly in science and we're not meeting those guidelines, particularly with screening. So whatever we can do to help move
that forward will make a significant impact in all of the consequences of kidney disease.
Rajiv Agarwal, MBBS, MD, MS, FASN, BRCU : Michelle, I couldn't agree with you more. It takes a village. And there are only 5,000 nephrologists in this country. And
I'll tell you, the cardiologists don't want to bother with glucose lowering drugs. It's outside their domain. I think the
pharmacists are uniquely positioned to intervene because they understand the medications, they understand the drug interactions,
they understand insulin, they understand what GLP-1 RAs are, SGLT-2 inhibitors are. And sometimes, the primary care physicians
can be overwhelmed because of the caseload. I don't think that this is going to go away unless we use every possible resource
and float everybody's boat here.
Wendy L. St. Peter, PharmD, FCCP, FASN, FNKF : Well, I want to thank both of you for this wonderful discussion. And I just wanted to wrap up with just 3 key messages. Chronic kidney disease is widespread. It hasn't been identified to the degree it needs to. We have new tools in our shed to be able to treat patients' kidney disease progression. And I think all of you said, we need all hands on deck to do that, including pharmacists, to actually make a dent in the CKD progression that we see today. So thank you so much for providing such amazing, good information today, for a pharmacist listening to this.
Michelle M. Richardson, PharmD, BCPS : Thank you.
Rajiv Agarwal, MBBS, MD, MS, FASN, BRCU : Keep doing the great work, pharmacists. We need you.